I Have Powers - [s7s] teh f-list haz spokken!

02:49 am May 2nd, 2008

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			I Have Powers - [s7s] teh f-list haz spokken! I am the Monkey King!

chadu


	[s7s] teh f-list haz spokken!
	(Doesn't "spokken" sound particularly METAL?) In response to my poll, the clear leader for "work during my break" is refining the S7S handout, to enable gamma playtests. So mote it be. Tomorrow night, or over the weekend, I'll start redrafting it. Once I have something in hand, I'll populate to my local groups, test, and revise. Only then will I propagate out to the S7S list. (Skyship combat needs a mighty testing!) Since we're on the topic of S7S, let me reveal some DEEP, DARK concerns I have about the manuscript... A. S7S is setting-heavy. There's 3x to 4x more setting info than Dead Inside. Given the recent upswing in minimal setting info in games (cf. Thousand Suns), I'm concerned that folks will look askance at this. Possibly seeing it as overly-indulgent. B. *The S7S* setting is weird. (Please note: wickedthought*, I say the following with love.) Most game setting material (IMAO) is clearly in the realm of "historical ripoffs." I tried to evolve the S7S* culture from a science-fictional perspective. Whereas one can look at the cultures/nations of 7th Sea and say "oh, they're the French, they're the Venetians, they're Elizabethan English [1], etc." you CANNOT do this with the S7S Islands. [1] Note, I think the fusion of Arthuriana with Elizabeth Rex is LIQUID GENIUS. For S7S, it's all like, "hey, who got the Egyptian into my French?" or "who got African tribalism into my Salish?" or "Samurai plus vikings? WTF?" I have concerns that readers won't dig the new mutant/hybrid cultures I've developed. (Not to mention the f'd up cosmology.) C. S7S is, and has been (for many years), a labor of love. I am worried I may be oversensitive to it's reception (for good or ill). D. S7S has intriguing (to me) sexual politics. Each Island has a different take on gender relationships; this is intentional. I'm afraid that people won't notice it. The inclusion, here, is intended to spark intriguing thoughts: a female Viridese Warmaster interacting with a Colronan Musketeer SHOULD bring up culture-clash. I crave it. But will other folks find it as interesting as I do? So, those are the deep and disturbing issues I'm feeling re: S7S. Tags: asmp, evilhat, game design, gaming, s7s, work journal, writing

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	Comments

	From: notthebuddha	Date: May 2nd, 2008 07:43 am (UTC)		(Link)

Somehow I missed signups for the S7S list. Is it too late for me to get on board the love train?

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	From: chadu	Date: May 2nd, 2008 08:13 am (UTC)		(Link)

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/S7S/

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	From: macklinr	Date: May 2nd, 2008 07:57 am (UTC)		(Link)

I know quickly replying won't make any anxieties go away, but you're more than welcome to hit me up (here or email, whatever) if you want me to unpack these thoughts.

A. S7S is setting-heavy.

Your concerns might be valid, but also consider that you've got to think about your target audience. Look at Reign. Look at Houses of the Blooded. Games with dense amounts of setting material are still being loved. Now, I don't tend do do big-setting games any more because of the whole "I barely have time anymore" thing, but that doesn't mean I don't buy them & enjoy reading them when I can.

Now, this means you have a bigger job: organizing the setting so that it's digestible.

B. The S7S setting is weird.

I personally like that S7S is weird -- I have enough historical games. Give me something weird, something interesting, something that can inspire not only the S7S game I play or run but also other, different games down the line.

And, frankly, if I don't like parts of the setting, well, it _is_ big...

Also, the weirdness seems to work for some folks with Reign.

C. S7S is, and has been (for many years), a labor of love.

Then I would recommend not replying right away to any reception of it, good or ill, for the first couple months that its out. Take your time and get out of the immediate reaction space. Or, as I call it, get your Fred Hicks on.

D. S7S has intriguing (to me) sexual politics.

I'm doing something similar with Mythender. It's a fighty game...that is underneath about destroying a culture and going native. That's an undercurrent for a reason: some people will play with that and some won't. It's okay if not everyone plays with sexual politics in S7S -- you've got it these so people _can_, not because people _must_.

Anyway, I thing S7S will really show people what PDQ can do -- and the system is so light that I do think the setting material isn't as huge of a deal-breaker. Now, if you have a cumbersome system with a huge setting, then perhaps yes.

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	From: oletheros	Date: May 2nd, 2008 10:09 am (UTC)		(Link)

i agree with two points here.

first, this is a perfect example of how a light rules system can make a heavy setting float. feel free to use a skyship metaphor here, as appropriate.

second, because this is a labor of love, it really does behoove you to sit back and let the market take it's course when it is released. yes, it's a test. but it's a test that you need to get through.

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	From: bruceb	Date: May 2nd, 2008 08:47 am (UTC)		(Link)

Is the setting really that massive? It didn't feel like it to me, maybe because it's vibrant and interesting. And you may wish to consider that there's an audience for what amounts to "fantasy done as if it were sf" - George R.R. Martin for the epic scale, but Pern, Darkover, and Witchworld are all examples of the same thing, in various ways, and so's a lot of anime. I think that S7S may have its core constituency in sf fans who also like fantasy.

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	From: reverancepavane	Date: May 2nd, 2008 10:05 am (UTC)		(Link)

Actually I felt Dead Inside had a much deeper setting. This is probably because you can easily split S7S into it's various components whilst you have to look at DI in it's entirity. And with a central core aspect, it's much more rigidly integrated into the system as well.

The S7S setting as presented isn't massive – in fact it's only a brief view of a fantastic world. You could readily put out an Atlas and guide-books to each of the major cultures, and probably should if you want to emphasise the weirdness. [As it is, one downside of this lack of information is that you tend to pull in outside examples to add cultural depth – as in they're kind of French, they're kind of Spanish/Italian, they're kind of Arabic, and they're kind of American (South and North).]

The cosmology on the other hand has been the source of most of the play ideas in games and discussions we've had; most of our questions were given "this" what would it be like and how would this alter how things happen. We liked it, especially when we got to start doing weird stuff rather than just testing the system (or maybe that's just because I got to play rather than gamemaster, but it was fun).

It's the subtle differences that tend to break the mould of the player's preconceptions. And everyone is going to end up with a different S7S campaign anyway. With a player-defined rule system such as PDQ you can't help introducing new stuff (and are generally rewarded for doing so). <shrug>

As for D, it doesn't really come out in the system. Perhaps you need to put more emphasis on this in the final text on how the cultures interact. <grin>

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	From: semioticity	Date: May 2nd, 2008 11:17 am (UTC)		(Link)

Chad, you're writing this game because you love this game. Of course you're going to be sensitive about its reception, but don't let possible reception get in the way of your love. You're not writing it for fame or money; it's *all* love.

Oh, and curse you for combining Arthuriana with Elizabeth; I've been noodling that for years.

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	From: wombattery	Date: May 2nd, 2008 01:34 pm (UTC)		(Link)

A. S7S is setting-heavy.
Yep. As Gordon Gekko said, "Setting is good. Setting works." Setting is the GM's friend. Setting saves the more typical grownup GM, who has less time to Make Shit Up, from lengthy preparation which may keep the game from actually getting played. I'm no observer of the market, but aren't d20 people selling setting-heavy stuff?

B. The S7S setting is weird.
I can't help but think that it takes a more practiced and educated eye than average to see the historical ripoffs so clearly, ergo most people won't be put off if you're being a little more ahistorical since they never really knew other games' historical settings to begin with. And I suspect that those who can see historical ripoffs in other games are likely to spot your historical mashups as well (as, for example, I think I'm doing).

C. S7S is, and has been (for many years), a labor of love.
Fair enough.

D. S7S has intriguing (to me) sexual politics.
I regard all of the cultural variations as part of the cool, the Vancian thing that I keep running into in throughout.

Bottom line: Yes, S7S is different and, in places, even weird, but is it any more different and weird than, say, DI? I think not. It's a game full of color and exuberant adventure, in the fine Chaddish tradition of T&J and ZoZ, with the added benefit of pointy things. It works, and will, I predict, work for as many (if a somewhat different set of) people as your other works. I totally get the "I love it and don't want it battered by the cruel winds of fortune," but you've gone this far with it. You must go forward, or S7S will be that girl you liked who really liked you but somehow you never made that first move.

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	From: wombattery	Date: May 2nd, 2008 03:41 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Oh, and "spokken" sounds like Vulcan metal.

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	From: mechanteanemone	Date: May 2nd, 2008 04:55 pm (UTC)		(Link)

RE: Weird setting

I can't help but think that it takes a more practiced and educated eye than average to see the historical ripoffs so clearly, ergo most people won't be put off if you're being a little more ahistorical since they never really knew other games' historical settings to begin with. And I suspect that those who can see historical ripoffs in other games are likely to spot your historical mashups as well (as, for example, I think I'm doing).

Our group included a number of people who love history, but we had a hard time "getting" the texture of the mash-ups. We never saw the "Egyptian into the French" or the "Samurai in the vikings." And we never saw any Salish (and God knows I work for Salish tribes.) What we saw was:

* French
* Ottoman Empire/Arabian Nights
* Italian / B5 Centauri
* Vikings
* Dutch
* Hollywood-style Pacific Islanders
* Caribbean Pirates

All of those with some twists, of course, but not clear enough that we ever got a clear idea so that everyone at the table could share the same understanding of what a place is like. So I recommend that you don't hesitate to spell it out for those of us who are a little dense. I'm also counting on the art to help transmit the feel of the various Cloud Islands.

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	From: chadu	Date: May 2nd, 2008 05:15 pm (UTC)		(Link)

We're working on getting that art.

CU

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	From: reverancepavane	Date: May 3rd, 2008 01:17 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Interesting. I viewed your Vikings as Americans and your Pacific Islanders as Inca types (then again, given the evidence of the Kon-Tiki expedition...). Otherwise we agree (except I used Italian/Spanish rather than Italian/Centauri; much of a muchness really at that time period).

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	From: mickbradley	Date: May 2nd, 2008 02:55 pm (UTC)		(Link)

I totally grok a lot of your concerns - I have some of the same ones (in terms of setting-heaviness, weirdness, and labor-of-lovism)for the game I'm making.

But in terms of S7S, those are many of the reasons your game stands out so dramatically to me as one I MUST own and play.

I loved 7th Sea. I still do. But I don't expect S7S to be a 7th Sea clone that happens to have floating islands and fling ships. I don't want that. I want the Chad Monkey's full-steam kick-ass world to mess around in.

So forge on, dude.

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	From: benliblit	Date: May 3rd, 2008 05:11 am (UTC)		(Link)
	tough love

A. S7S is setting-heavy.

Your settings are an aspect of your work that consistently gets rave reviews. If S7S is setting-heavy, then so much the better. Your settings kick ass and they always have.

I am worried I may be oversensitive to it's reception (for good or ill).

Forgive me for being blunt, but this is also nothing new. Yes, of course you will be oversensitive to its reception. Just like you have been oversensitive to the reception of everything else you've done.

Every now and then you post a LJ entry asking people to describe you in one word, or something like that. I've never responded to those, but I'm always sorely tempted to reply with the word "overlyconcernedabouttheopinionsofotherssuchasbyaskingustodescribeyouinoneword". OK, that's not one word. It's probably one word in German, though.

D. S7S has intriguing (to me) sexual politics. [...] I'm afraid that people won't notice it.

So what if they don't notice it? Who are you to say that they must? When you sell the public a toy, you don't retain the right to tell them how they are allowed to play with it. They will do with it what they wish, and you don't get to tell them that they're doing it wrong. If your writing does not induce them to respond the way you expected, well, tighten your writing or relax your expectations. Your writing already rocks, so I recommend expectation-relaxation.

Heck, any kind of relaxation. Chill, dude. It's all good, and it's all getting better.

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	From: chadu	Date: May 4th, 2008 01:49 am (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: tough love

Thanks, mang.

Though I'd say I'm meta-worried this time (worried about being oversensitive rather than being oversensitive).

;)

CU

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	From: orklord	Date: May 3rd, 2008 06:40 pm (UTC)		(Link)