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Underkoffler's Overview: Dogs in the Vineyard
I've finally had a chance to read this game; here are my brief impressions. This is not a review, per se -- you probably won't get much out of Underkoffler's Overview if you haven't read the book. What you will get is my opinions on the Negative, the Positive, and the Verdict.

[ Underkoffler's Overviews Archive ]





Dogs in the Vineyard
Written by D. Vincent Baker/[info]lumpley


Website: [ http://www.septemberquestion.org/lumpley/ ]
Reviews: Ken Hite's Out of the Box, and many others linked from the website above.



The Negative

  • I'll See Your Rules, and Raise You. . . Something. It took me two tries to get through the rules description. It really read foggy/fuzzy the first two times through, and left me confused. I kept reading on, and later went back. That time, it clicked into place a bit more. I'm not really sure why I had such trouble the first time. I suspect it has something to do with two possibilities.

    1. The overall formatting of the book (in places, I wanted smaller line spacing, for denser text; my eyes felt like they were darting around too much).
    2. The uncomfortable style choice for the example text. The examples are written in this weird mix of first and second person: "I do this," "You do that," "Then I do this." Kind of distancing and off-putting. I would have preferred straight third person throughout the example text.

  • Brother Zachary is a Mess. Baker uses the name "Brother Zachary" most often in examples I believe, but there's no consistent single "Brother Zachary" character. Here he's a this, there he's a Steward, over there he's something else again. Baker mixes the example names up fairly well elsewhere, and keeps mostly consistent, but Brother Zach always seems to be doing something wildly different each time he's mentioned. I mean, it's not like Baker didn't include a substantial list of other names to pick from in the back. . .
  • Where's the Art? The only art we get in the book is the cover piece. I really, really, really wanted to see some art of Dogs doggin' it up, their Coats, guns, spiritual showdowns, all that stuff. I got nothing.


The Positive

  • See and Raise Mechanics. Despite the problematic presentation to my eyes (see above, I'll See Your Rules, and Raise You. . . Something), the "See and Raise" mechanics -- along with the Escalation and Fallout -- mechanics are just brilliant. These rules help generate and support the story of the game as it's being written, rather than forcing adherence to something outside the situation or (worse) interfering with what's going on. They are very, very nice.
  • Let's Recap. Baker includes a short recap of every section as he finishes talking about it. This works surprisingly well (though I wish he'd graphically set these off with textboxes or something).
  • Creating Towns. The rules and suggestions for how to generate new towns, rife with conflict (and thus, adventuring opportunities), are fan-damn-tastic. While I probably wouldn't buy the book for the "See and Raise Mechanics," I would definitely buy the book solely on the strength of the Creating Towns rules. Well done.
  • A Nice Conversation. The tone of Baker's writing throughout this game is conversational, without being false-chatty, and flavorful without sounding like a bad dialect joke gone on too long. Barring a few Quirks (see above), it's solid work.
  • Striking Idea Gold. DitV is one of those games that just starts your brain-juices going. I have plenty of ideas on Towns and conflicts I'd love to set up, as well as pondering how to adapt various Westerns I like into adventures. I also have these fevered thoughts of "re-imaginings" of DitV, modifying the basic rules into strikingly different games. My two favorite heretical DitV re-imaginings (which someone must have come up with already) are:

    • Foxes in the Henhouse, where the whole ethical cosmos is overturned. Instead of holy Dogs protecting their congregation, you'd have super-slick con artist Foxes fleecing the marks. Sort of The Grifters by way of Jim Dodge's Stone Junction.
    • Bats in the Belfry, which can be played in two modes, where the Bats would patrol the neighborhoods of Gotham to dispense justice. "Bright" would replace the Dogs with Batman's various sidekicks and support characters, and take place in the generic Gotham Knights era; "Dark" would replace the Dogs with the Sons of the Bat from Miller's The Dark Knight Returns and take place in that era. Interestingly, a Dark Bats in the Belfry game would be pretty damned close to "vanilla" DitV.



The Verdict

  • As a player or GM, this game is worth purchasing if you can accept the underlying strictures of the Faith for game purposes. If you can't set aside distaste for elements of the Faith as written (picking at random, the appropriate gender roles for men and women), the game will bother you. However, I don't think that should be a game-stopper: with a little thought and attention, these things can be excised from the Faith -- just pay attention how society, sinning, and the effects of both on the game world change, and you should be golden.
  • As a game writer, you must buy this game. While it has some rough bits, the last half of the book should be required reading for anyone who wishes to write RPG adventures or gamebooks. Why? A fantastic grasp of how to set-up conflicts in an game, without railroading.


Check it out.

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Current Music: The Ballad of Bobby and June -- Mitch & Mickey

Comments
caprine From: [info]caprine Date: March 31st, 2005 12:22 am (UTC) (Link)
Thank you.
chadu From: [info]chadu Date: March 31st, 2005 12:31 am (UTC) (Link)
Hey, you're welcome.

. . .

Why are you thanking me, again? :)

CU
foreign_devilry From: [info]foreign_devilry Date: March 31st, 2005 02:25 am (UTC) (Link)
Chad, are you suggesting that the players or their characters have to buy into the faith's tenants for satisfying play? Because I've found it to be just the opposite. Like any social structure, the Faith is set up to promote a complex system of cultural ideas, many of which are contradictory or just rub people the wrong way. The whole fun of the game (at least, in part) is watching the characters wade through this stew and try to figure out how they feel about it. Characters that are flat-out at odds with certain tenants of the Faith are really great, since their vulnerabilities are right there for a GM to poke with a stick. "Do you fight the system that empowers you?" It's a great question. Just my experience.
chadu From: [info]chadu Date: March 31st, 2005 03:37 am (UTC) (Link)
Chad, are you suggesting that the players or their characters have to buy into the faith's tenants for satisfying play?

No, not as such. I think that the players need to be able to not be utterly repulsed by the tenets of the Faith -- to hold any personal, real world distaste in abeyance momentarily -- in order to pick up the game and play.

That is, you've got to be able to accept that these are the tenets of the Faith within the setting. The player and character reaction to these tenets are, as you say, where big interest can come from.

CU
brand_of_amber From: [info]brand_of_amber Date: March 31st, 2005 03:21 am (UTC) (Link)

I'll buy that for a dollar

I agree, dude, to a T.

My particular problem with Dogs is this: no one will play with me. The moment they find out it's pseudo-Mormon they all flip out and run away from the table like I have cooties. (I've been able to play a total of 3 times, despite pushing the game on everyone I know like crack.)

I'm thinking of doing a Solomon Kane: Witch Hunter setting redesign and seeing if that makes people a little less skitish about it.
chadu From: [info]chadu Date: March 31st, 2005 03:39 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

The moment they find out it's pseudo-Mormon they all flip out and run away from the table like I have cooties.

Yeah, this what I was trying to get at (see discussion with [info]foreign_devilry above).

I'm thinking of doing a Solomon Kane: Witch Hunter setting redesign and seeing if that makes people a little less skitish about it.

So, in the Great Chain of Being, pseudo-Puritan is better than pseudo-Mormon. :)

CU
brand_of_amber From: [info]brand_of_amber Date: March 31st, 2005 03:46 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

Yes. Because I (the GM) am not Puritan.

It isn't the Mormonness that gets em, so much as the fact that they'd be run by a real Mormon.
chadu From: [info]chadu Date: March 31st, 2005 03:51 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

I believe the pitch line for any session you want to run should be, then, "full of Mormony goodness."

CU
foreign_devilry From: [info]foreign_devilry Date: March 31st, 2005 03:46 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

Okay, I sorta get what you mean, but the cootie-fleers are being morons. One of the key things that excites me about the game is going into it and trying to change the overly-condemning society of the Faithful, because I'm all indignant about it. Then again, some people like their escapism when it's a lot less like the real world.
brand_of_amber From: [info]brand_of_amber Date: March 31st, 2005 03:52 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

That's how I feel too.

Of course, I have real world issues with my real world church and with the place of religion vs humanism generally, so I'm into that type of stuff. And most of the people I game with have good reason to know that, as I'm not exactly bashful about my views.

But everytime I talk about the game to someone they get this look on their face like I imagine people must give a vampire who is asking to have a close look at their neck.
chadu From: [info]chadu Date: March 31st, 2005 03:53 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

Then again, some people like their escapism when it's a lot less like the real world.

A lot of people were turned off by bits of Dead Inside for that reason.

CU
brand_of_amber From: [info]brand_of_amber Date: March 31st, 2005 03:57 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

People suck.

Dead Inside rocks. And I actually have a group that is going to play a campaign of it as soon as my Exalted game wraps up.

(I've played single-session one-shots before, but this is the long term play debut, yo.)
chadu From: [info]chadu Date: March 31st, 2005 05:40 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

Fantastic! Let me know how it goes!

(Oh, and don't foget this.

CU
foreign_devilry From: [info]foreign_devilry Date: March 31st, 2005 04:12 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

I'm embarrassed that I still haven't read it yet. Keep meaning to.

One of the problems being an progressive designer is that, even if you design games for an audience besides the hedonistic roleplaying masses, the non-roleplaying masses will not know that it exists or, even if they did, will overlook it because of their perceptions of the hedonistic roleplaying masses. So you're writing stuff for an audience that doesn't exist... yet.

What we need to do is convince Wizards or White Wolf (or even a second-tier but fairly progressive company like Atlas or Green Ronin) that they need a "Vertigo"-style imprint for creator-owned indie games, and that they need to market it like crazy towards non-traditional gaming audiences. It worked for comics, once the indie scene was putting enough creative and market pressure on Marvel and DC. But it takes serious marketing dollars and unquestionable talent to pull off something like that.

Well, we've got one of the two already :)
biomekanic From: [info]biomekanic Date: March 31st, 2005 05:27 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

Hmmm... maybe e23?

Thanks for putting this on my radar again, now that I'm a little more cash flush I'll have to look into getting a copy.
chadu From: [info]chadu Date: March 31st, 2005 05:43 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

So you're writing stuff for an audience that doesn't exist... yet.

Nah, they exist out there -- the trick is letting them know we're here.

This is borne out by my experiences with Atomic Sock Monkey Press over the past year. Sales continue as word of mouth spreads. The backlist is your friend.

CU
princeofcairo From: [info]princeofcairo Date: April 1st, 2005 08:36 am (UTC) (Link)

Re: I'll buy that for a dollar

I'm thinking of doing a Solomon Kane: Witch Hunter setting redesign and seeing if that makes people a little less skitish about it.

I may have mentioned this before, but when Vincent was showing me the game at GenCon, he says to me, "And before you ask, Ken, yes you can play Cotton Mather hunting witches with it." Talk about your hard sell.

For those who don't know, and for some reason still haven't gotten ahold of DitV, it won my coveted Out of the Box Award for Best New RPG of 2004.
pete_darby From: [info]pete_darby Date: March 31st, 2005 12:31 pm (UTC) (Link)
Tee hee, serruptitiously picked up DitV off ebay this week... you know, I pretty much agree with everything you said, good and bad.

I don't know if you saw threads last year about Glorantha where someone blasted it because "you have to buy into this sub-jungian campbellian crap" to play it? I think that guy had the same problems some folks have with Dogs, in that they can't even bring themselves to pretend a belief system is true for the purposes of a game.

Heck, I think you could play DitV as a satire on the LDS, just as you could play HQ as a satire on Jungian metaphysics. But that ain't an option for some.

But again, there was someone on BoardGameGeek last year asking for alternative rules to Amun-Ra, as, being strictly orthodox Jewish, they couldn't pretend to worship false gods. A lot of the guys gave them stick for it, but I can see where the ruling comes from...

"Hey you guys! Why are you sacrificing to that golden calf?"
"It's... errrm... a play, yeah, no, errr... a game, that's right, a game."
"Well, do you have to worship the calf as part of the game?"
"Ah, you see, we're not *really* worshipping the calf, we're just *pretending* to..."
"Okay, but do you have to pretend to worship it? Can you pretend to, say, give the sacrifice as payment to someone for better irrigation?"
"I suppose... *grumble grumble*..."
chadu From: [info]chadu Date: March 31st, 2005 03:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
I don't know if you saw threads last year about Glorantha where someone blasted it because "you have to buy into this sub-jungian campbellian crap" to play it? I think that guy had the same problems some folks have with Dogs, in that they can't even bring themselves to pretend a belief system is true for the purposes of a game.

Yeah, I recall that. I also remember a discussion where someone just couldn't wrap his head around operative Archimedean science per Garfinkle's Celestial Matters as an idea for a game.

Weird.

CU
rob_donoghue From: [info]rob_donoghue Date: March 31st, 2005 08:46 pm (UTC)